Amr The Internet Guy
helping them become more successful and conducting their business on the web without being stuck with technology. Hey guys, and welcome to a new episode from online. Today we’re discussing digital marketing. The problem with digital marketing is that the umbrella of digital marketing is so white. And there are a lot of things that actually fall underneath. Sometimes even your website is part of your digital marketing. The issue is that in the past few years, people have been thinking about technology more than the marketing aspect itself. And one way or another. Many people feel alienated when the term digital marketing comes into play. So what happens, you know, what is exactly? What exactly is digital marketing? And how do I get it right? Is it Seo? Is it paid advertising? Is it social media? Is it email campaigns? Like, is it mailing lists and landing pages? And you know, there’s a million questions here. Luckily, my guest is an avid digital marketer, with a great passion to help entrepreneurs and small business owner, he is in Vancouver, and we’ve had a great conversation. So without further ado, let’s meet Arjan Mundy. Thank you. Hey, guys, I’ve got ours on here from everyday Dreamers. And we’re going to be talking about some interesting stuff. But the first thing that I’m interested to know is a little bit more about origin. And the name everyday dreamers. So how did that come about?

Arjan Mundy
It came out of university, actually. So this is probably the second iteration of everyday dreamers, when we’re actually trying, but in university, you know how it is you, you want to start a business and you want to start a particular type of business. And you spend forever thinking about, you know, what is the name of this? What is the local, what is all this stuff, and it just kind of hit me one day, I remember I was sitting on my balcony, just thinking about the day. And I don’t know where it came from. People sometimes talk about like, writers talk about inspiration, just hitting, I have no idea where to name everyday dreamers came from, but it just came to me like, that sounds super nice. I want that to be the name of my company. So that I floated it by my partners, and they also loved it, there was a bit of contention, because it’s like, okay, are people going to really know that this is a marketing company, the fact that the name has nothing to do with marketing, but so far, we haven’t run into any issues. So, you know, people really like the uniqueness sounding of it, I think. Yeah, I

Amr The Internet Guy
think it’s, once you create enough awareness, it doesn’t really matter what the name is. Yeah, gotta like it. And it has to stick in somebody’s mind to remember you. Maybe, I don’t know, maybe you don’t remember. Like, for a first time visitor, for example, to your website, maybe they won’t remember all your services. But they’re struggling to remember the name.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, for sure. I mean, the ideal is to have a name that sticks in people’s mind, but also speaks to what you do, right? Amr, the internet guy, you know, I mean, like that not only sticks in your mind, but it’s also very, very clear what field you’re working in what services you probably provide, right? Every dream is less though. But it’s more inspired from the apple brand of names. You know, Apple has nothing to do with computers. Now, right? Yeah.

Amr The Internet Guy
It’s funny, I My first job was at Apple right off to university. But at the time, they weren’t so big on on marketing it as Apple, it was mostly Macintosh was the name that was used most of the time, or you’d say, Apple Mac. But that was because they didn’t have anything but computers. There were no iPods. There were no phones, nothing else. So we touched on it. And you said you’re a marketing company. So I just wanted to give our audience a little bit of background on you know, why a marketing company?

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, sure. Um, like, why, why I found

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah, like the idea itself, kind of, you know, how did you venture into it?

Arjan Mundy
Sure, sure. Um, as I said, this is a second iteration. first iteration was just me and a few friends goofing off in university, you know, we were all in our last year of university. We kind of wanted to start something. So we said, hey, why not a marketing company because I had some background in marketing. Before this, I had done some marketing for some festivals, some marketing around the university, and I had worked with a couple agencies, so I had some background there. And we thought, okay, we can leverage the scale because I’m not bad at it. Um, we got some small contracts, but you know how it is, when you’re in university, you’re not really focusing on the business. You’re focusing As your studies added, kind of just died out naturally, university ended, we all have to get jobs. I lucked out, I managed to get a job with the United Nations actually working in UNESCO in Paris. That was really, really cool. But it really about a year there. And I realized very quickly, I do not want to work in an organization period. Um, you know, you’re working for the United Nations, you’re working for UNESCO, you you feel like it should mean something you feel like you should feel inspired to go into work every day. And I didn’t really I just felt like working on something bureaucratic nonsense that took forever to pass through, you know. So that was a bit of an issue for me. And that’s when I really thought about everyday dreamers. That’s when I was like, You know what, let’s give this another try. More seriously, this time? Yeah. So you know, saved up a bit of money. When was that? That was about a year and a half after university. So that was about two years ago now. Two years ago. Yeah. So yeah, so that bit of money. My girlfriend Nicola, you’ve met her. She said, Okay, I’ll help too. Then we had another friend Spencer. And he had been working in more startup type businesses. So he’s like, you guys know, marketing. I know business. We can bring this together. And you know, nice. So kind of just all started falling to get into place. And yeah, that’s how it started.

Amr The Internet Guy
So we’re all entrepreneurs by chance?

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, I mean, there’s anybody an entrepreneur any other way? No, obviously. There’s any other way. But yeah, you just fell into it.

Amr The Internet Guy
You don’t think about it when you’re in school? Or, like, it’s kind of you don’t think like, I’m going to go on my own? I’m going to do this like, because the idea itself when you’re younger is a bit scary.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, I mean, for me, and my friends, it was really exciting. That idea, but I don’t think any of us really understood the work that went into it.

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah, of course, yeah. Um, I, I became an entrepreneur by chance. I can’t claim that I’ve been an entrepreneur, like all my life, or whatever. I come from the corporate world. And I was forced to become an entrepreneur when I moved to Canada in 2016. And I couldn’t get the job that I wanted, like, there were jobs, you can get a job, but you can’t get something, as you rightfully said, that makes you feel inspired. I mean, I don’t want to say you can’t, because I don’t want to discourage newcomers and new immigrants. But in general, it does take time for you to understand how everything works. And yeah, when you’re brand new, just moved in. And providing you don’t have any language issues. It’s easy to integrate. But finding the job that you want to finding a job that’s closer to what you were doing before coming, will take a little bit of time, because he has no network. And, you know, you’re still trying to learn the ropes of how businesses operate here. And I found that, you know what, like, it’s not. This is not working for me, I feel like, like a player who’s sitting on the bench, someone who wants to get inside and score. But the coach still doesn’t know the player. So, you know, so you know, I’m gonna be my own coach. Let me Yeah.

Arjan Mundy
I mean, my mindset. Yeah, I really like that mindset. I think. I think here, as you rightly said, it’s network. That’s one thing, but your job, even for my friends who are in normal nine to five jobs, not entrepreneurs, they can make the job into something they want. The difference really is that it takes them a bit longer, right? Yes, they get into a job, they have to do some grunt work. And don’t get me wrong. There’s lots of grunt work associated with entrepreneurship. But it’s different, right? We have grunt work in terms of like, we need to call people, we need to be outreaching. We need to do that they have grunt work more in terms of like, hey, the boss told me to fill out all these spreadsheets, you know, yeah, yeah. But regardless, it takes time to build the job of your dreams. The real choice for people is just like, are you going to do that in the office? Or are you going

Amr The Internet Guy
to do that on your own? Yeah. And whatever makes you happy. It’s like, we were just discussing offline a little bit earlier on your website. I, I have to tell people about this. Except for daydreamers don’t see I’m gonna have to link posted Anyway, when the video is produced. But what caught my eye The first thing is, is that the button for read our blog looked like an underwear. And I was thinking like, why would anyone do that? And then I asked you, so I want to tell people why your button for your blog is an underwear.

Arjan Mundy
Well, it comes it’s it’s our name, right? Not not everyday dreamers, but the name of our blog is marketing in your underpants, because I just could not think of a better name for a digital marketing blog. You know, what do I do? Well, I I spend my days marketing in my underpants you know, and I love our blog to teach other people to do the same.

Amr The Internet Guy
Marketing in your underpants is that like, like the connotation Is it because of how easy it is? Is or because of you do it from home. So you’re not dressed?

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, from home. It’s not It’s not easy. But but it’s from home. And before like before Corona and everything name came back for Corona. So it was less. It was more original to be marketed for home, I guess, you know, now everybody does it.

Amr The Internet Guy
Because I mean, I didn’t mean easy as an easy as No, the work itself is easy. But compared to traditional old style, offline marketing is way easier. At least, is it? I mean, if you think about it, I don’t know, maybe it’s not. But the idea is, because I’m an online person, and I’ve been with the internet for, I don’t know, 20 years now. I feel like, there’s nothing that you cannot do online anymore. But when you think about it, you’re just sitting in front of a computer. Like we all accomplish different things. But at the end of the day, we’re all sitting in front of our screen and our computer, the only thing that matters is the connection. Like if you lose that you lose everything, but

Arjan Mundy
yeah, yeah. We don’t have a connection. Yeah, the digital divide. Right. But like, um, yeah, no, I agree. I think I think maybe what you’re talking about is there’s less barriers to entry, you know? Yeah, like, one thing that’s always I don’t really know, because I didn’t really work in marketing before the internet. So I’m not 100% sure this is true. But I feel like marketing before the internet wasn’t as accessible. Now, I wouldn’t say it’s easier. Yes, there’s a lot more that needs to be that needs to be done. But you know, what to do? You just go and do it, you know? So there’s more work, there’s more busy work that goes into Yes, indeed, you have to add like 5 million keywords into your Google ads, right. So like, that takes time, you know, researching that, and whatnot. Whereas if you are doing that offline, or the equivalent of that, how

Amr The Internet Guy
would you like this is the thing that it can’t be done offline? What How can you ask, how do you know what people are searching for? Or what? Like, if there’s no internet, you have to walk in the street and stop? I don’t know, 50 people a day to ask them what their interests were.

Arjan Mundy
Well, before the internet ads were just ads like they weren’t Google ads. They were, you know, ads on TV ads on radio billboard ads right. Now, like the thing about those ads is that the creative for them takes much, much longer, right? You sit with it for a long time before you think about Yes, this idea is good enough to put on TV. This idea is good enough to put on radio, you know,

Amr The Internet Guy
there’s no AB testing. Yeah, exactly. If expensive. You can’t just put it on TV and pay all that money, and then it doesn’t work.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, exactly. But today, it’s just you release something. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bad ad. Yeah. Because you’ll find out in two days, because you’re also releasing 10 other ads, and you’re like, Oh, this one’s performing badly. So I just switched these ones. No. So yeah, it’s, it’s more busy work. But easier to do. You don’t need it doesn’t take as long.

Amr The Internet Guy
That’s what I yeah, that’s what I was thinking about. Yeah, I mean, since we’re discussing ads, as well, and this is one area that I get asked about all the time. And, you know, like in general, when people think of search engine optimization, they always remember receiving junk emails from halfway across the world, promising them yeah, first page of Google and whatever. But luckily, those who contact someone that trust, like contact, you contact me contact somewhere in our community. And we always tell them, no, don’t actually respond to these offers. And in most cases, even if they’re true, or what they do is they take your money, and buy ads, but they’re not actually doing something for you. Like, you can buy your own ads, if you wanted, the problem isn’t buying the ads itself and paying Google or Facebook, the problem is actually finding the right things to put on the ads like something that actually people are looking for something that will get clicks to you or people will have more interest to learn more, or whatever it is that it’s on the ad, if it’s, you know, if you’re selling an item or whatever, but in most cases, generally speaking, the average entrepreneur, like let’s say, I don’t know you’re a yoga coach, right? You don’t want to spend your time actually studying how ads work. You just want something to work like so. I want to know a little bit more how it works. Like what what happens, let’s say if I’m like, I’m a solo entrepreneur, and I want to market my services now, but I’m not sure where to start. What do I do?

Arjan Mundy
Um, it’s so different. Depending on your strategy, your industry and what your goals are, right? So you mentioned two things, right that you mentioned SEO and you mentioned

Yeah, yes. Right. Yeah.

Arjan Mundy
Um, and and for different strategies, it might be appropriate for different entrepreneurs, different tours, starting up different companies, right? If you’re starting up, I don’t know, a cannabis company or something that’s sort of their rules against advertising that using Google ads, so you probably need to put a lot of your effort into SEO. But if you’re starting up, you know, a coaching service, or a marketing business where your average offer is $5,000, or something, that sort of thing. PPC is the way for you to go. Because there’s a lot more competition on SEO. It’s difficult for me to give like, Hey, this is the one yeah, there’s no one

Amr The Internet Guy
size fits all. But the issues in most cases that people aren’t sure, where to look to start with, like, what do I it’s not? It’s not, I’m not talking about which agency to use. I’m talking about the decision that you reach eventually that hey, I need help with that. Like, how do I know that? I need help? Yeah,

Arjan Mundy
yeah, for sure.

I think, um,

Arjan Mundy
how do you know you need help?

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah. Like, what’s the, it’s that that’s always the thing that I think about when I think business. So I tried to go back to the point where I personally found out that you know, what, I can’t do this on my own. I need help, then I started looking into options, what type of help and you know, who do I use, how they check that the real or that the service really fits me or whatever. But in the beginning, in most cases, you know, that what I found was online marketing is people always have the wrong idea to what it is, you know, because there’s so much it’s so big, like we’ve, we’ve touched on two things right away, like really a little touch, we didn’t go deep into any of them. And we want for for the sake of you know, not making this like a seven hour long podcast. But in general, there’s so many things like keywords, for example, there’s the keywords research, right? So people don’t know how to go about doing that. So I’m trying to figure out for the regular, non internet non techie person who owns a business and want to make sure that they put their message in front of their prospects, people who may have interest in what they’re offering. Yeah, where to start, like what to do? What? How do you know that? You need help? You know what I mean? Is it when you’re not getting enough inquiries from your website? Is it when your phone is not ringing? Or you know what I mean? Like? What’s the point that tells you, you know, what, like, there are a lot of things that you could be doing that you’re not doing.

Arjan Mundy
I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head, it boils down to something isn’t working. The difficult thing is figuring out what isn’t working. So I can’t really tell you, like, end of the day, if you’re not making enough sales online, yet, it’s probably a good indicator that you need some help with our digital marketing, you know, but it doesn’t just have to be sales, it can be a million different things. Maybe you’re not leaving the best brand impression, maybe maybe you’re making sales, but people aren’t sticking with your company, you know, maybe you’re getting making sales, but getting bad reviews, you know, bottom line is something isn’t working. Right. Yeah, yeah. And you’re looking at, it’s not working the way you want it to, and it’s not growing the way you want it to, you know, and that’s when you probably want to get help. And it’s again, it’s difficult, because another situation that hits my mind is a lot of the clients who I sometimes help, or people who don’t actually have digital brands, they have brick and mortar stores, right? And are looking to bring their brand online. So like how do those people, though, that need help? Well, you know, they don’t have a system that isn’t working, they just know they have a desire to print something online. So a lot of different people are gonna fall into a lot of different categories. But if you already have a business, if you’re already trying some of these things, and something isn’t working, good indication that you should talk to someone and digital marketing companies. Here’s a secret that a lot of people don’t seem to know, digital marketing companies give free consultations, pretty much all of them. Like, there’s no and I am, I’m very happy to geek out over marketing. Personally, I love it. When people come to my website and book a marketing consultation. I don’t care if they buy from me or not. Yeah, and you don’t want to buy from me now

you get excited just to talk. Yeah. Just to talk to people and figure out what they’re trying to do.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, I can geek out about your business. I can geek out about the marketing for your business. I can set you up a roadmap. Sure if you want me to do it. It’ll cost money. But like, yeah, I can tell you what to do. I have no issue with that. Right. Yeah,

Amr The Internet Guy
it’s exactly the same case. Like when when you know, people think that web designers just go ahead. What on their own, figure out a design, come up with it and just like publish it, and it’s done. But it’s not that it’s your website is part of your business is a tool. So we like a good web designer got to understand how you’re doing business, like what’s, you know, what’s your process? What kind of service? What do people get when they use your service? Do you have any kind of, you know, guarantees? Or are you doing it completely offline? Or is there a part that’s going online? Is it going to be ecommerce? And then if it’s ecommerce, what’s your refund policy, things like that? How where do you ship? How do you ship? How much the shipping cost? There’s a lot of moving parts that goes into a successful website. I mean, it’s so easy for a business owner to just go online, figure out get some website. Yeah, get something done. But is it gonna work? That’s the question may look really good. Because everybody has templates. Now, like you go wicks and Squarespace and whatever. But it’s way harder to get something to click properly and work when you’re kind of I don’t know, DIY and get without prior experience. And that’s why I get really happy when they book the call. Because, yeah, I mean, if you don’t buy from me, it’s not it’s not a big deal. But at least you know, what you need, and you’ll be better in searching for what you need then, before the call.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, yeah, I think you’re you’re getting to a really interesting issue. Because I think part of the reason people don’t like booking these free consultations, because this is just free value that they think we’re

Amr The Internet Guy
used cars, used car salesmen,

Arjan Mundy
they think we’re trying to sell them, right. And I understand that, because at the end of the day, when someone comes to you, as you just said, You surface all these questions that they haven’t even thought about. Yeah, you know, so I think people see that almost as a sales process, like, oh, wow, I didn’t even think of that this person could like, they feel like they’re being sold. But in reality, that’s not to say that I’m not trying to sell them. Yeah, I’m just saying, Listen, if you’re trying to achieve x goal, you probably need to think about these things. You know, so that’s an interesting thing that I’ve been struggling with recently, because I never want to sell someone, you know, I mean, I want them just to get the information they need to make their own decision. Um, cut that part out, because my business partner hate me for saying, I never want to sell someone. But yeah, but no, it’s true. I

Amr The Internet Guy
mean, it’s I don’t know. I mean, the word sales, like sales in general, isn’t something bad? Like we even those business owners, who are our clients? They need the sense. I mean, that’s why they come to us anyway, like, because they have to sell. Right. But it’s the way it’s done. It’s not sales. It’s a way problem. Yeah, yeah. No,

Arjan Mundy
I’m not sure. I’m not saying that. I never want to sell someone period. I’m saying that I never want to feel make someone feel like they’ve been manipulated. Exactly.

Amr The Internet Guy
Or something on them when they’re not really, you know, that goes against the gut feeling or Yeah,

Arjan Mundy
yeah, exactly. And I think, and I think a lot of people do feel like that, like, when you’re just raising questions, I know, because like, I like every now and then people try to sell me on their stuff, right? And it’s like, Okay, cool. And when they’re just raising questions, I have to constantly remind myself that, hey, they’re just raising questions to help me achieve my goal. But it feels like they’re raising questions to push their, their surface, you know, yeah. Yeah. And I and I think about that sometimes, because I think that’s how people feel when I bring up things like, have you thought about this, this and this, you know,

Amr The Internet Guy
and there’s a lot that goes into switching, you know, if we speak about brick and mortar shop owners, right? There’s a lot that goes into switching stuff online. It’s not about it’s not just about it’s not about tech, it’s about how would you do business differently? So there’s a little bit of change management that goes into it. And if you’re not ready, it’s not going to work. So like, for example, if you’re used to doing business over the phone, and then you make sure that somebody is there nine to five to answer that phone when it rings. But when you switch online, and instead of the phone ringing, you getting people to fill a form on your website, if you don’t have an auto response on that forum that tells people hey, we’ve received your inquiry and we’re going to get back to you within x like whatever one business day two business days, whatever your strategy is, then it’s like the phone ringing and no one picking up. So it’s bad business practice. It’s not about the tech, it’s not about how the form was built. It’s about how are you gonna behave? When this inquiry comes in, in a digital format? What do you do? Who’s there for? Who’s there for them? You know what I mean? I get People sometimes ask about membership websites. And most of them have great ideas why they want to have a membership website, but there are some people who don’t know what to put in there. And logically, like, before you think of the word membership, you first need to have the conclusion of what is the content that I want to lock behind the payment. You know, because all what all what a membership website is, is some content that is locked and you have to pay to get it. That’s it, that’s what it is. It’s just a name, it’s membership. But like, at the end of the day, you’re locking some content away, behind, I don’t want to call it a firewall, but behind the wall, and the only people who pay get through the wall. That’s it. So if you don’t know what this content is, then you don’t need a membership website. Maybe you need to drip content or you know, don’t post everything at once. Let it before the break, and then something like that. So yeah, yeah, different services means different things to different people. I’m interested to know from you origin. How do we measure the efficacy of digital marketing? In general, I know, we can put everything in one pot and call it digital marketing, like Pay Per Click is different from SEO is different from content writing is that you know what I mean, but in general, I find that, for example, and I’ve seen this on your website, somebody from in your reviews, I think, was it your website, or your Google reviews, I can’t remember, I think it was Google reviews, said, Hey, guys, if you need help with social media, contact these guys. And I’ve always shied away when people ask me for help with social media, because I don’t understand what exactly they need help with, and how to measure whether, you know, they’ll be better after the service then where they were before the service. So the measurement part is the part that makes me scared to even hook them up with someone who knows how to get it done. You know what I mean? Like, it’s not, I don’t normally get myself into something that I don’t know about. I’d rather focus on what I know best. And, you know, but people ask for different things. And sometimes you don’t really understand what they’re asking for.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah. Um, okay, so there are really two things that you’re aiming for online, right? There’s credibility, social proof, brand, presence, all those things I’m lumping. Like, there are many things that go into it. But I’m lumping it all under the umbrella of credibility, you know, you are a credible brand, and their sales there those two things right. Now, realistically, most of the digital marketing practices that you have, are going to be measured by one of those two umbrellas, right. And these are once again, I’m making a huge broad brush. Yes, right. Yeah, but but like, just to simplify it. Um, if you have a social media strategy that is aimed at building credibility, then you have to define how it’s doing that. Is it getting you more reviews? Is it building you a social media group? Is it just simply starting a social media account and getting some likes and engagement on there so that when people come there, they feel like, oh, people are actually behind this brand? A little bit? You know, like, what is the goal? And if it’s a credibility based goal, what is the metric that’s going to measure that? And if you define that in your original plan, then it’s very, very easy. Sales is obviously much, much easier. But it’s the bottom line, how much how many meetings? Have you booked? How many of those have converted to sales? Yeah. And it’s really very easy to see like, Okay, this, like we converted really good well off the first initial call, but no one actually close something went wrong that quote, like, you know, you can, it’s easier to say how to measure that, right? When you try to measure credibility, you really have to start with what are you trying to do? And how’s it making us more credible? Being in the top three spots of Google organically makes you more credible? So like, that is how you measured that part. approach? Yeah, it’s

Amr The Internet Guy
five years. Oh, yeah. But six, eight months? I’m joking. Yeah, because everyone wants to be on the top page of Google. But they, in essence, to get there organically. You need the time because you’re building. It’s like building blocks, you know, you have a break on a break on break until the whole building is, is ready. It’s not blocked, right? Like,

Arjan Mundy
do you want to be on the first page of Google for some word that no one ever searches for? Because you can do that tomorrow, right? Yeah. Yeah, you want to be on Google for a word that is actually going to be profitable, that people are actually going for, then you’re right, maybe five years, maybe eight months? Like it just depends on how much money you’re going to throw at it. Right? Yeah. But yeah, get back to the idea of credibility. If you’re trying to build credibility somehow online, then you need to define what is success, like how is it building credibility, and that is much easier to measure. Right? So social media is Mainly social proof, or it can be sales if you’re building a group, you know, yeah. And so that’s those are, that’s kind of what we do, right? If we’re building social proof, then we’ll start everything up, we’ll focus on engagement. And we’ll say, Hey, this is how we measure success. Because look, people, you had 400 people engage with your brand last 20 days, right? And whenever someone goes to your page, they’re gonna see that engagement, you guys seem like much more credible brand. If we’re doing sales, and we can say, Hey, 200 people on this group now, and they’re all talking about your product, that’s not only engagement, and that’s good. But that also functions as an extended mailing list. And now we can get you some sales. Yes. Right. So it’s just your original question. I really think it’s about defining your goal, especially if you have a credibility based goal, because those can be a bit ill defined. Yeah.

Amr The Internet Guy
And yeah, just I think just measuring something by the amount of likes isn’t, I would, I mean, okay, it’s not bad to have likes, but if you only have likes, and you don’t have any sort of engagement, like comments, reviews, people asking questions, or talking about your brand, the likes alone would not lead to sales.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, but it’s not all about sales, right. As I said, this is sometimes it’s a credibility based strategy, in which case, it can be all about likes, it doesn’t have to be, there’s more things that go into credibility than than just likes is that as you said, this engagement, there’s reviews, there’s other things, just people talking about the brand, right? Maybe mentioning it on Reddit asking questions about it. Yeah, there’s so much stuff that goes into it. But like, hey, if your main goal is like, Hey, we don’t look like a credible brand. Because when people search up digital marketing company, everyday dreamers, they come to our social media out of has nobody on it and no likes, and we’re talking to ourselves. Yeah, yeah, then you know what, maybe our goal is make sure all posts have 10 likes and then right, just so that there’s something there. So it can definitely be the goal. But that’s a very credibility focused strategy, one specific part of credibility, right?

Amr The Internet Guy
It got me thinking right now, something very interested because it’s very interesting, because I think I’m beginning to understand that digital marketing is dynamic. It’s not, you don’t put a strategy and just use the same strategy for the whole year. It’s a different stages of the business are different goals of the business can be achieved one at a time. So it’s kind of a, I don’t want to say, because I don’t want to scare people, I don’t want people to think, Oh, my God, if I get into this, I’m going to be paying somebody for the whole year. But that’s not what I’m trying to do. What I’m trying to do is to understand or to get my head around is that because when you’re a new startup, like when you just said, if people Google me, for example, or go on Facebook, and look, and there’s just a page that has nobody on it, no likes nothing. This is not good for the business, because there’s no credibility. So the goal might be credibility. But once you have that, and it might take some time, it might it might be very quick. It might take a month, it might I don’t know, I’m not, you know, I’m not the one doing it. But But in general, once you achieve that, you got to set your next goal. And your next goal is not like your past goal. Is that Is that a fair statement?

Arjan Mundy
Yeah. I mean, it it really depends on what you’re I’m sorry, all my question. All the questions you asked me, I always answer it. I’m sorry. It depends on what you want. Yeah, no, but it is it is it it is it kind of a case by case you’re trying to do me personally, I don’t really view it that way. I view it as a big machine that I’m creating, right. So like I’m creating a big machine that starts on our website leads to email, signups for specific things. And those email signups and coach for Social Media Group and then close Rico and somewhere else. And so I’m looking at it, it’s like a big machine, a funnel that hasn’t read and at the top right, or at the desire stage, or whatever it is, right. But you don’t have to, if you’re just starting out, it’s it’s completely okay to just start with a couple of things to say, you know, what, my brand would be 10 times better if I had 100 likes on Facebook, go get 100 likes on Facebook, and then switch gears completely and say now, okay, now my brand would be really, really good if I got exactly, you know, so you can definitely do that. It depends on you know, what, what is the goal here? Are you a digital marketing company? Because then yeah, you probably want to be thinking in terms of a big machine that you’re building. Or if you’re a digital marketing company that relies heavily on e commerce company that relies heavily on digital marketing, right? Are you a brick and mortar store trying to move online, small bite size goals completely, okay.

Amr The Internet Guy
You know, it really just depends on your situation. But because the situation is fluid and it will change at some point. You got to be ready for the next phase. Right, it’s not, you can’t have a strategy and just fix it and say, that’s what I’m gonna do for like, I don’t know, the next two years. I mean, okay, when I’m trying to confuse everybody right now, your mind is

Arjan Mundy
this brand strategy. Right, exactly. So like,

Amr The Internet Guy
that doesn’t change. That doesn’t change. That’s the big thing like the umbrella on top. Yeah,

Arjan Mundy
that was a little bits. There are individual campaigns. Yeah, that are directed towards achieving your brand strategy. Right. And your brand strategy is necessarily loose, right? What is jeets? brand strategy? James brand strategy is to associate the word Jeep with the word tough, you know, Jeeps? Yeah, tough. Yeah. Right. But like, and that’s really, really loose, obviously, there’s gonna be more than goes into it. But like, that’s really, really loose and high level, that’s what it is. The individual campaigns that go into achieving that are going to change on a daily basis, right on a weekly basis. But the brand strategy, Jeep is never going to switch gears completely and say, Okay, now we’re not

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah, you’re not gonna do that.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah.

Amr The Internet Guy
But you could start, like, you know, I don’t know, when Jeep started, probably before we were born, but. But when they started, they probably wanted, there was no Facebook. But if if Jeep was a new company, and there is Facebook, probably the first day they started their campaign, they just wanted to have some likes, is to try and build a little bit of awareness that, hey, we’re here. We’re about tough cars, and whatever. And then, once that is done and accomplished, the next task that they have to do is maybe to get people talking about the brand. So maybe they want to try something different from just getting likes. I don’t know, maybe they want to try some sort of competition or whatever, something to get people engaged.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you’re right, those can change. Like, maybe you find out maybe you try to get 100 likes first. And then you find out in the process of doing that, that all 100 of your likes, or 90 of your 100 likes have come from opposing carmakers or something was so yeah, yeah. So maybe you’re like, Okay, maybe I have to change my strategy up a little bit. Maybe I have to be fluid in that. So like your overall brand strategy, what you’re trying to do hasn’t changed, but the campaign has shifted because of the results you’ve gotten. And that’s totally fine. Right?

Amr The Internet Guy
Is it expensive? This is a very question. I’m not asking you to save pricing on air. But is it expensive to use a digital marketing agency? Because people always think, Oh, my God, I’m going to be locked into a, I don’t know, some kind of a retainer that’s gonna cost me an arm and a leg. And I know the answers to the question, but I want to hear it from you.

Arjan Mundy
Is, is hiring a digital marketing agency? expensive? I mean, what kind of budget are we talking about here? like, Okay, look, hiring that any any buddy? Professional is expensive, quote, unquote, right? In the grander scheme of things? No, it’s not expensive when you look at your finances 30 year? No, it’s not a major expense, you know. But when you look at the price right in front of you, yes, it is expensive, especially for a small business owner, right? Um, yeah. Does that answer your question? Like, I guess what I’m saying here, is that look, it is if you’re, if you’re just starting out, yeah, then yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s 1000 bucks, and you’re not gonna be locked into retainer, if you have a digital marketing company coming at you and saying, hey, you are locked into our feed for like, one year or something? Yeah, don’t do that. Maybe it’s a bad sign. Right. What we do personally is I we we do have like a three month term or something has soared. And I’ve been trying to get that even lower, because I don’t want to lock people in. But the balance here is that very, very often, when you do things like SEO, is that look, it takes a couple of months, it takes

Amr The Internet Guy
exactly you can’t do it, you can do it and stop like you. You’ll be stopping short of reaching your goals. That’s the thing,

Arjan Mundy
right? And yeah, so we do say, hey, three months. And then what we do is we talk about our relationship outside of that. So we say, and after that three months, that’ll be the initial push. And after that, we’ll review and we’ll do X, Y, Z, Z, Z. And you know, so we we talk about a relationship extending beyond the three months, and we find that helps our customer retention large, right. But yeah, if you’re, if I’m a small business, I remember when I was just starting this, if you told me like, yeah, you’re gonna have to work with a company who takes 1000 bucks every month for three months. That would be like, so expensive, you know? Yeah, that you’re a bit bigger, maybe no, maybe it’s just a smaller fee. Right? But like, when you’re starting out, it can be expensive.

That parts care may scare people, right?

Arjan Mundy
And that’s okay. Right? Because what you want to do, if you’re just starting out, is make use of those free consultations, right? Yeah, go to a bunch of those. Find out a whole bunch about this. Get the problem. So get ready, get yourself ready, get the process down, understand what goes into this, let’s say you want to do SEO, or Google ads, or whatever it is, right? Go talk to a bunch of people about your potential SEO practices, find the best strategy to one that really resonates with you. And then if you want to do it yourself, right, and if you don’t want to do it yourself, then be like, okay, I can get the money together for this one digital marketing agency that really impressed me, I’m going to go ahead with Yes, right. But like, it’s also okay to just get the information because a lot of people eventually get the information. And they’re like, you know what, I can put this into effect. Exactly. And a lot of times, it doesn’t work, you’re just doing it, realizing that there’s a lot of work that goes into it. But there’s no, I always encourage people to use these free consultations as much as possible, especially if they’re thinking that this is a very expensive price, because they’ll understand more about

Amr The Internet Guy
the area. Once you know the value you’re getting, and how much time and effort it saves you. It’s not going to look expensive anymore. Because I mean, I I see this with websites all the time. I don’t know, like, you know, the average website cost, what, like 3000 $2,000, somewhere between depending on how many pages and what functionality in there, whatever. And that’s like the average small website has five, six pages, right? But a lot of people start out by thinking like, you know what, I’m a startup, I’m bootstrapping it, I don’t have $3,000 to hire a web designer. And let me do it myself, I’m going to go somewhere, I’m going to do it on WordPress, or I’m going to do it in Squarespace or whatever. And then they start, which is a good thing, because you need to get your hands dirty to understand what goes into it. Yeah. And then, at the very start of it, it seems so easy, right? Because you’re only you choose a template or theme, you click, there are some photos there, you change it, you put your own photos, you choose a font, you start typing, and you’re very excited, right? until you hit the brick wall with something technical. Like you know, I don’t know, you put in a forum and it’s supposed to be sending emails, but that’s not happening. Or you want to link this to your MailChimp so that when people sign up, they go on your whatever or, or the whole thing is too slow or something is broken. And then when you hit that you realize that this will cost you from your time at some somewhere around, I don’t know, 2030 hours to learn how to fix the stuff that’s not working in here. When the frustration comes and you feel like, why am I doing this? You know, and I’ve spoken to some people who spent I think, Aaron, she spent How long? 120 hours on her website. She was on my episode number 10. And it’s 120 hours, like how much is your hourly rate? Like if you calculate this, your website would have cost you 567 $1,000? whereby if you hired somebody, they’ll do it faster. Better, with less cost? Yeah. So is the same thing you could try to do? I don’t know Facebook ads on your on your end up just making Facebook more money.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, there are ways like look, you can everybody’s capable of doing a good job. Yeah, on a website on their own, or Google ads or Facebook ads or anything on their own. The trick is really, as you said, the 120 hours to learn it the time to learn it. What we do is we save business owners time, same as you right, you save that time to do this yourself. Everybody can do it. But it does take time. I mean, you don’t have to, yeah, hey, I would have loved to hire you. A year ago, when I started my making my website, we’ve spent over 10 grand, I think on making our website, and hey, it’s an impressive website, it looks really good. When it’s done. It’s gonna be really spiffy. But yeah, a lot of mistakes along the way, for a digital marketing company, right? Like, I don’t know, what about this, and it still was difficult.

Amr The Internet Guy
It really doesn’t matter. Because like we can all learn different things. That’s the beauty of the internet, the information is out there. You can learn things, and you can act on them. But the question you should be asking yourself, do I use these hours, these many hours to work on the business to work with my clients? Or do I use them to learn tech and make my website better? So yeah, if you’re a web designer or web developer, you’re always learning you’re always using this time to make things better for your clients for yourself. But if you’re, I don’t know a yoga teacher, if you’re a marketing company, or you know, you’re not necessarily going to use whatever you learned in your website learning process. Again, this time wasted, that’s time taken away from your customers. And that’s time that you weren’t paid for. That’s the other thing. So generally it goes live This is either you do it from your own time, and you get to decide how much your hour is worth. Right? Or you get somebody else to do it for you. And hopefully, their hourly rate is less than yours. You’re making money. You’re not wasting money.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot to do back there, I think because, um, I don’t think when people first start their digital businesses, especially nowadays, right, no one, like a lot of people start the digital businesses. As a side hustle, right? Yes, it’s something on the side. And I have a lot of respect for the people who do that and figure out their own marketing, because then it’s, they’ve done a proof of concept, right? Yeah, like, hey, my product has value, I figured out the value proposition, I figured out how to get it out there. And that when that person comes to me, I can just take their marketing hire, right. Same with their web dev, right? Maybe they got together a Squarespace website, that’s decent, but you can probably take it much, much higher. So I have a lot of respect for people who figure out at least a base level on their own. Because that means two things, that means when you actually come to professional, the professional can help you take it even further. Exactly. And two, it means that no one’s going to take you for a ride. One of those people, one of those people from God knows where in the world is not going to send you an email about SEO getting on the first page of Google Ad you’re not going to buy, they’re gonna fall for that. Right. So I think there’s a lot of value in doing it on your own. Right. But maybe, maybe, but like, as you said, it depends on your goals. Are you a yoga teacher who’s decided that I’m going to do this full time? Probably hire professional? Are you a yoga teacher who’s working at a practice and then has decided, actually, you know what, maybe I do this on the side as I’m figuring it out? Yeah, do your own marketing until you’re ready to make it a full time thing?

Amr The Internet Guy
Of course, I mean, it’s good to know also, when you DIY and get where you can find help when you need to, like it’s Yeah, there is help. There are different things that can be done. And there’s free help available.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, we’ve talked about our free consultations, obviously, right. And those are great pieces of free help. But even when I was first starting, when I was in university, there’s so much help online, just on Quora, just on Reddit, people have the answers, you know, so yeah, there’s, um, there’s a lot of resources for someone who’s getting into this world.

Amr The Internet Guy
I love that. So I think we’ve covered like, pretty, you know, pretty much a lot of marketing stuff here, digital stuff, I don’t want to bore people or turn it into a very techie conversation of what you can do on your own, and what is the stuff that you probably need help with, this is something that every individual will have to decide on their own, and how much is their time worth. And if they’re okay, pulling their hair out while they’re learning. So it’s a it’s a journey, everybody takes different entry points to the journey. And but at the end of the day, is good to know that there is help available and Arjun rightfully said that there’s also some free help available. And not only in the forums of, hey, Google it, or go on Reddit, or Facebook groups or whatever, you can also book the free consultation calls. These are actually very good value. I mean, I, I, for one, sometimes evaluate this and think, should I continue doing this because it’s a number of hours, you know, of my time that I would otherwise be paid for. But I enjoy them. I enjoy getting to know people, I enjoy doing these podcasts because I get to know people like you, I get to know, industry professionals, I get to speak with them and you know, uncover some information that I personally didn’t know about. And so now I have a little bit better understanding of you know, how digital marketing agencies work. And they’re not expensive when you look at the value.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they’re not expensive. It’s an interesting one. Because, once again, you come back to those umbrellas with credibility and sales. I find that we’re not very expensive. When you look at the sales we brought in a company, you know, but and those companies that we’re bringing in Salesforce, that we have a sales focused agenda for, they don’t think very expensive at all. And there’s never a question about our services because they’re making so much more off our services. Right. On the other hand, companies that hire us specifically small businesses that hire us for credibility focused efforts, social media, SEO sometimes, yeah, I hear more often than not that our services are expensive for them. And that’s because they’re focusing on credibility and it’s harder to judge those We judge that as a bottom line thing, you know, um,

Amr The Internet Guy
the measures are is not as easy

Arjan Mundy
as sales. The point there, I guess is that, hey, if you’re a small business, maybe focus more on sales than the credibility things, which is more for maybe medium sized businesses and businesses that are getting out of the Small Business stage.

Amr The Internet Guy
Hey, I don’t know, some people probably or some businesses may be doing very well with sales, even though when you look online, they don’t look like they have a ton of credibility. And that’s because they’re probably selling quite well offline anyway.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, they don’t care. They don’t care they have I mean, if you’re making like, Hey, I would I care a lot about my social media, if I was selling up, like 10 to 10 clients a day, you know, if I have a system that’s working, then I probably don’t care that much about

Amr The Internet Guy
my scene. Very successful entrepreneurs with crappy websites, and no social media presence whatsoever.

Arjan Mundy
If you have a system that’s work, they’re selling well,

Amr The Internet Guy
offline, they don’t care. What didn’t care? Well, because the reason they spoke to me is because they’re thinking about the online part now. And when I look and you think, like, Oh, my God, like, look at that website is built 10 years ago, it’s ugly. It’s not mobile friendly. It’s like, you know, it’s got all the don’ts that we tell somebody don’t do. Yet, this company, or this business is making a lot of money already, like, you know, they don’t, they didn’t really care up to the point that maybe I don’t know, COVID. COVID is accelerating the digital intake now. And, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing, because post COVID, whatever you did, as a business owner, during COVID, two pivot would help you grow. Even like now that you know that you’re doing stuff online and getting some success online. It can only grow from there. So it’s not necessarily a bad thing that COVID pushed some people to think about online when they’ve ignored it for as long as they did.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah. I think people naturally hit a plateau. Like, it’s, I know, plenty of coaches who have a terrible online presence, but are making money hand or foot because they’re great salespeople. indische in networking network, right? Even digital networking, right? But what I notice is that they all hit a plateau. Eventually, they got a lot of small clients, and eventually they want to make it over to bigger clients. They want to start coaching businesses, they want to start coaching CEOs, they want to start in taking bigger clients, right? Um, those are the clients who are going to be looking at your digital presence, your online presence, maybe right? So you eventually hit a plateau and you start losing some of the clients that you’re going after, because you have a bad digital presence. Exactly. So. So I guess that’s just to, to tack on to the point I made earlier that you know, what, a lot of businesses don’t care because they’re making money hand over foot. Yeah. If you have a system, great rabbit, understand that. Eventually, you’ll probably hit a plateau.

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah, and be ready to change when change is needed.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah. We were supposed to talk about copywriting. We didn’t, ya know.

Amr The Internet Guy
Yeah, I mean, the copywriting part is is, you know, is a gear in the Big Wheel of marketing. And it’s an important year. And initially, I think I had this idea of talking about copywriting in general, because I’d interviewed an editor. And we were discussing the difference between a copywriter and a dead and an editor and what each of them does, and whatever. And also, because as a web developer designer, I have a problem that many of my clients, when they come for a new website, they don’t have content. So I’m happier working with a client who has an older website that’s not working for them, or that’s dated and doesn’t reflect the brand that they want to refresh and redesign. Because they already have texted, they already have some kind of content in there. And during our design and redesign, we could get them to go and review what’s there and tell us if they want to change it. The problem happens when you have a startup, or a brand new website, does another brand new business and they don’t know what to write. And it’s kind of no matter how many times it tells them it’s way easier than you think. They see this as a stumbling block. And I wasn’t sure if hiring a copywriter is the answer to these prayers. But I don’t know like I keep telling people you know what, you know, you’re all great at what Do you can explain it as an elevator pitch? You can explain it when you meet somebody in real Canadian superstore, like, Hey, what do you do? I’m a CPA accountant, I do this, this and this, right? That’s the stuff that goes on your website is so simple. So I don’t get why people think it’s too complicated. If you can talk, you can write, like, it’s.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. It’s almost being manifest, right? Like, I remember when I was in high school, and I remember it’s happening to a lot of my friends to teachers beat conversational writing out of you, right? They say, no, that writing is too conversational. Yeah. And I hope they still don’t still do that in high school. Because now the way you want to write online is conversational. Right. So I think a lot of people feel like their writing isn’t supposed to be the way they talk. But yeah, you’re right. It should be, it should be the way that they talk. It should focus on the benefits of your service, right? It should, it should solve their problem. It’s, there are some background pieces that people maybe should think about around like, what is the problem they solve, etc, etc. But those are just good things to think about. If you own your own business Anyway, you know, yeah. Um, answers to those prayers. Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. Like, the thing is that you can hire a copywriter who maybe won’t deliver the best, like, if you hire me, right, as a copywriter, and I’m a decent writer, I’m, I’m not going to be able to help the business that doesn’t know what exactly they saw this.

Amr The Internet Guy
So this is the thing like the copy that that’s the thing that I want to tell people about and be very clear about. The copywriter is not going to invent something to write about your business, you got to you got to come up with some sort of content, maybe the way you write, or the way you’re going to be talking about your business as a business owner, isn’t the best way for results online. And that’s okay, because the copywriter will turn it into the stuff that will go online for you. But they won’t come up with the idea on their own. I mean, some can, or to a certain extent, but that’s not what you want. You want to think about your business, like the reason why you got into that type of business anyway, and share it with your audience. That’s like the story. It’s kind of, I don’t know, I don’t want to formalize it into you know, strategy and marketing. And something that sounds a bit too corporate or too hard to do. But it’s kind of what’s your story is like, um, I told the people in the first episode of this podcast, where the internet guy name came from, right, and part of it because my name is very hard to pronounce. Like, they couldn’t say my name. And they were afraid if you know, they say it wrong, they’ll get offended or something. So they just come to the end. And a guy like, you know, I’m meeting with internet guy. And it’s just went on from. So it’s kind of why I do what I do. Because I like helping people to transition from non digital to digital, without pulling their hair out. It’s as simple as that. So if you’re a CPA, if you’re a yoga teacher, I don’t know why I keep saying yoga teacher because of, maybe my sister does it. And but if you’re a coach, if you’re an owner of a small coffee shop, or I don’t know, a bakery, or something like that, you got to think of, you know, there are 10s of bakeries in your area, or more, or maybe 1000s in BC, or are in your state or wherever you are, right? What there’s a passion that you have that made you choose that specific business to do. There’s something that you do well, that you know, that you do well share that with the world, right. And then my idea is like, if you just either jot it down, as you’re in your own words, and then or even record it on your phone, just do it as an audio file, if you don’t want to write and give this to additional marketing company that has copywriting services, or an editor. They’ll do it for you that they’ll give you the final version. That is supposed to be the one to attract people to click and want to have a conversation with you. That’s the whole goal.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, um, a lot of thoughts there. So he used a really dangerous word you use story, as well. Yes, that’s really that’s a that’s a trigger word. For me. That’s actually the reason I got into copywriting Originally, I was very, very interested in storytelling, right. And what is storytelling? How does it happen? How does happen in a digital context specifically and through copywriting? One thing I’ve realized through thinking about that is that it’s never about your story. People don’t care about your story, right? The protagonist in the story that you’re telling is the is the lead is Yes.

Amr The Internet Guy
How do you solve something that wasn’t, you know, is the result that what your existence What? What problem do you solve right? And in your story, some of the stuff in your story, because what made you go into that specific business is because there was a problem that needed to be solved, and you’ve decided to solve it yourself.

Arjan Mundy
But the problem here, I think, is that you keep on referring to it as your story. It’s not your story. You are not Luke Skywalker. You are Yoda. You know, you are not. You are not. Yeah, you’re sure?

Yeah, exactly. You’re

Arjan Mundy
the guide. Yeah, you’re not what’s the main one? I had another one from Frodo and Gandalf. You’re not Frodo? You’re Gandalf. But yeah, the whole point? I

Amr The Internet Guy
haven’t watched that. So I don’t know. I know the name drinks.

Arjan Mundy
Okay, definitely, definitely do. But the, the main point there is that look, if you write your own story, and give it to a copywriter, that’s going to be a happy copywriter, because they can make something out of it. If you’re looking to do your own copywriting. You can’t think of writing your own story, you have to think of it from deletes point of view, someone coming to your website, they want to see you as the guide to their eventual happiness, right? Or to their eventual goal, maybe not happiness, maybe their potential goal, right? So you really need to start by thinking about like, how do I position my product as the solution to that pain? And you can do that in a variety of different ways. But if you think of yourself as the guide, that’ll come easier, right? Yes,

Amr The Internet Guy
yes. The teacher I mean, the, in England, the bus is called the coach. Probably not everybody knows that. So he said, I’m getting on the coach. And then when you look, when you look at the word coach and dictionary, it means doesn’t necessarily mean vehicle as in a physical vehicle, like a bus or a car. But it means something that takes you from point A to point B. And that’s what coaching in my opinion, that’s what coaching business is about. Like if I’m a coach, my job is not to do it for you, my job is to let you do it yourself. And I’m going to be taking you from where you are right now, to where you want to be. So my job is to make you go through the journey yourself with my guidance.

Arjan Mundy
Yeah, just about that. And back to your original point about you know, business owner who doesn’t have content. I’m a business owner, who doesn’t have content should probably hire a copywriter. But as you said they should have based writer Yeah, about why they came up with the business, etc, etc. The problem that they solve without those things, really what ends up happening, and we’ve we’ve done contracts where the business owner hasn’t given us that kind of thing. And we have to come up with it on our own. What ends up happening is we end up writing the way we would sell that business, which is not about the business owner that right? It’s not his business, we have to put our own spin about it. It might do the job. And if you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But if you really want this to be something personal, something that has yours touching it your spirit, you need to come up with something personal.

Amr The Internet Guy
Yes, indeed. I love it that way more. I know there are like different ways of making it work. But personalization, like I’m, I’m big on personalization, that’s that’s why I refer to it as the story. And I don’t really mean that you should bore people with every little details of your life. And or, and I found this Yeah, I’ll put what you eat on Instagram, because I hate that but like, where does the food go before your stomach? Oh, I don’t know. It goes on Instagram. All right. Awesome. Thank you very much for being my guest today. I really enjoyed our conversations. And I hope we will meet on zoom or maybe in real life when we get vaccinated.

Arjan Mundy
Sounds about right. Hey, thanks so much for having me here. It was lovely.

Amr The Internet Guy
Take care. Have a great day, man.